Knowing I am off topic, I have requested a list of ALL neighborhoods. I couldn't find the total list, and this was the closest match I could think of.
I won't bore you with the reasons, but although a Christian, right now I find myself somewhat a square peg in a round hole when it comes to church involvement. I do go occasionally with my more active husband, but am finding most of my needs met and opportunities to serve elsewhere rather than in the church. Having given church a good long try (many many years) I am feeling pretty good about somewhat going it alone. I know already that churched Christians do not agree that this is O.K. I am interested in hearing from other unchurched Christians or uncongregating believers of any religion on how they find this experience.
Well, I can see there are a lot of different perspectives on this subject. Rather than get into a point for point discussion I will merely refer to what Jesus said "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again" John 3:3 And in Rom14 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. Psalm 1 says 1 Blessed is the man Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, Nor stands in the path of sinners, Nor sits in the seat of the scornful; 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night. 3 He shall be like a tree Planted by the rivers of water, That brings forth its fruit in its season, Whose leaf also shall not wither; And whatever he does shall prosper. this is the reason I removed myself from a church that was straying. I do not make decisions based on emotion, but based on the voice of the Holy Spirit! "my sheep hear my voice" I will say again, The "church is not a building with walls, but a "people" born- again believers are the temple of the living God! God wants his family back! So, set aside your "religion" and your "theology" God wants your heart. Jesus had some very harsh words for those who lived by religious laws & regulations. The only law He imposed was love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul & strength and love you neighbor as yourself! If you live by the law, you make yourself subject to the curse of the law. Jesus came to set us free from the law of sin & death.
there are church ed and non church ed Christians but we need to be in church and to teach others that are coming along, but let us remember we go to worship God and not to feel good although that is fine also. our being there may help someone else, just be sure that the doctrine is sound and bible based, all things taught must be in contexts and not as we feel or think it should be. the primary doctrine is that if we confess with our mouth the lord Jesus and believe in our heart that God raised Him from the dead we shall be saved, praise the Lord.
YES, AND I FEEL LOST.I HAVE RECENTLY MOVED 800 MILES AWAY FROM HOME, HAVE ATTENDED MANY CHURCHES IN THE AREA IM IN NOW,BUT I DONT FEEL THE SPIRIT IN ANY OF THEM THE WAY I DID BACK HOME.THIS IS BAD,BECAUSE GOD SENT ME HERE TO HELP A PERSON AND HER FOUR KIDS.AND HERE I AM NOT EVEN ATTENDING SERVICES ANYWHERE.BASICALLY IM A SINNER AND IM NOT TOO PROUD OF IT, BUT IM ALSO NOT TOO PROUD TO ADMIT IT EITHER.
I know what you mean cshewmaker, I once attended a church that when you went through the door you could feel the presents of the Lord, but don't go on feelings, just know if you are where the Lord wants you, you will be OK. as far as being a sinner, to come back all you have to do is tell Him and He will take you back. may God bless you and I wish you great success in your christian walk.
PT 1-Response to Princessgifts7's post: She said: "this is the reason I removed myself from a church that was straying ."I do not make decisions based on emotion, but based on the voice of the Holy Spirit! "my sheep hear my voice" I will say again, The "church is not a building with walls, but a "people" born- again believers are the temple of the living God! God wants his family back! So, set aside your "religion" and your "theology" God wants your heart. Jesus had some very harsh words for those who lived by religious laws & regulations. The only law He imposed was love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul & strength and love you neighbor as yourself! If you live by the law, you make yourself subject to the curse of the law. Jesus came to set us free from the law of sin & death. "
1) You say you don't make decisions based on emotions but the voice of the 'Holy Spirit'. The Bible teaches Christians should make decisions based on scripture, and what scripture is for: "and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God ["God-breathed", Greek, NIV. ESV: "Breathed-out by God"], and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Tim. 3:15-17). The Bereans, in Acts 17:11, were commended by testing even a living apostle, Paul (who wrote 2 Tim. 3:15-17), by already written scripture. Just because one church may stray, and it depends on the issue(s), that does not mean Christians should stop going to a local congregation with one or more elders/pastors, etc. The Bible is dead set against setting aside doctrine/theology. Doctrine is there from cover to cover, and the NT speaks over and over on its importance. If the Bible is "the word of God", then GOD has given all of it. It does not make an artificial difference between the words of NT Jesus, and the words of Paul, Peter, etc., as if the selectively chosen words of NT Jesus (or all of them), in or out of context, are superior to the biblical teachings of Paul, Peter, Jude, and the rest of NT writers.
PART 2-Response to Princessgifts7's post: 2) You said: "The only law He imposed was love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul & strength and love you neighbor as yourself!"
NT's Jesus said: "This is the FIRST and GREATEST commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matt. 22:38-40) WHERE does it say it is the ONLY law? Nowhere! He ONLY *said* it was the FIRST and greatest. That actually necessitates more, since to be the greatest, there has to be others. Why did you stray from what the Bible has as the truth right from Jesus? 3) You used the Bible loosely. The curse of the law refers to a SPECIFIC law- the Law of Moses. It does not make a sweeping dismissial of anything else besides a few of Jesus' words as 'the only law'. I invite all to read the *entire* section where that is mentioned, and carefully study it in its original meaning. It is clear on what law. The NEW Testament/NT has many commands, etc. It has statements on freedom, but that isn't a license to 'sin', either. There are things that are up to individual conviction, etc (Col. 2, Rom 14), but it doesn't dismiss all. The 'Holy Spirit' doesn't 'trump' "the word of God". The 'Spirit of God' will not contradict 'the word of God', and visa versa. You shared: "this is the reason I removed myself from a church that was straying." However, you yourself strayed from the clear message of the words of the NT Jesus on the greatest & first- not the only- commandment, and wrongly handled the passage about the curse of the Law The Bible states "And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, NOT FORSAKING the assembling of ourselves together, AS IS THE MANNER OF SOME [!!], but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching." (Hebrews 10:25-26), and it gives the details of those assemblies- pastors/elders, teachers, and deacons (1 Cor. 12, Eph. 4, 1 & 2 Tim., Titus 1:5,9). Paul said that elders are given to oversee the flock of God in Acts 20:27-30, and why: "For I have not shunned to declare to you the WHOLE counsel of God. Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves."
Ephesians 4:12-13 says that pastors/elder, teachers that God set in the church (1 Cor. 12:28) are there: "to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ."
Paul said to Titus (1:5, 9): "The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint ELDERS in EVERY town, as I directed you. He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by SOUND DOCTRINE [THAT'S "THEOLOGY"] and REFUTE those who OPPOSE it ["CONTRADICT it"-ESV/YLT/NKJV]."
Too many Christians are being deceived into this sloppy "religious spirit", etc, mindset that really ends up contradicting the Bible, and even sometimes is used by teachers to get others to just accept their teachings, and to label all those Christians who don't agree with them, so the followers of the false teachers will automatically close their minds and hearts and won't listen to others. Liberalism does a similar thing with language manipulation (hard right, extreme right wing, phobic, haters, bash, clobber passages, etc). Biblically speaking, Christians should beware of this.
PT 3-Of my Response to Princessgifts7: Princessgifts7 has made a false dichotomy between theology and the 'Holy Spirit', and seemingly a separation between "the WHOLE counsel of God" and the 'Holy Spirit'. It is false teaching, and biblically speaking, dangerous. All of this does not mean that Christians jettison 'the Holy Spirit', but they work hand in hand. The Bible and our minds guards our hearts, and helps to keep our subjectivism in check. She says she doesn't go by feelings, but it does seem that she bases her version of Christianity by waht she considers as 'the Holy Spirit', but from what I have read, ends up being her own subjectivism. "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, ACCURATELY handling the word of truth." (2 Tim. 2:15). For Christians, the New Testament is clear on the absolute need to be a part of a local congregation of the universal church. The verse someone used, "where 2 or more are gathered in my name, there am I" is in context of *congregational* discipline in Matt 18. The very verse used to justify not being a part of a 'church' (more accurately, a body or congregation of the universal church) is the opposite of what it is used incorrectly for. If one is not a part of a local congregation, what Jesus says to do cannot really be done, when a professing Christian wants to 'go it alone', as well. Acts 2:42 shows Christians in corporate meetings: "They were CONTINUALLY DEVOTING themselves to the apostles' TEACHING [NKJV- "apostle's DOCTRINE"] and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer." (NASB)
Acts 13, etc., speaks about it, as well. 1 Cor 12:28 says "God has set some in the church" & includes teachers, pastors. Acts has, according to many, the first mention of deacons in the 7 set apart to help, 1 & 2 Timothy speaks of pastors, deacons in the local congregations. Paul didn't tell the Corinthians that if the church didn't shape up, go at it "alone". He wrote to bring sound doctrine & practice to it, but never said, or hinted, to separate from it. We see in Titus 1:5 Paul having Titus to appoint elders/pastors in every church/congregation, and in 1:9 for those elders to both encourage with *sound* doctrine (not what sounds nice, or similar to Tony Robbins), and to *refute* those who contradict sound doctrine. Acts 20 speaks of elders as those who shepherd the flock. Then Hebrews 10:25 plainly says not to forsake the gathering of "ourselves *together*, as *is* the manner of *some*, so much more, as you see the day approaching." Hebrews 13:17 speaks of obeying your congregational leaders, but in the context of those servant-leaders speaking the word of God in vs. 7: "Remember your *leaders*, those who spoke to you *the word of God*. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith."
The SAME book that says to NOT forsake the ASSEMBLING of Christians speaks of obeying the leaders (13:17) who speak "the word of God to you" (vs. 7). Hebrews isn't saying to just meet as a few Christians in any way you want. Christians can certainly meet outside of a local congregational meeting, but the context of Hebrews speaks of the assemblies that Christians are NOT to forsake has leaders. The other passages I shared mention who the leaders are, and why they are there. Those professing Christians who don't study their Bibles enough to know these things, or rationalize what it says are without excuse. No one is perfect, but that is no excuse to disobey the Bible while professing to be a Christian. Please go to the Bible Gateway website, and type in "one another" in quotes in the 'Keyword Search' option on the left, using the King James Version (I say the KJV, because the wording may be different in other translations). Please then note how much 'body life' permeates the teachings of the New Testament for Christians. I differ with one who posted, in that I don't believe tithing transferred to the church, but giving to the local church is biblical. I would never give to DuPlantis, Copeland, Hagin, etc., because I have studied differences with them on the whole Word of Faith teachings (See charismatic Christian author, DR McConnell, "A Different Gospel", as one source), & I don't think money should be siphoned to other ministries, that would have gone to a local church fellowship (with the Bible's elders/pastors as the undersheperd). After giving to the work of a local church, it's cool to give to sound ministries. There is no "correctly handl[ed]" (2 Tim 2:15) Bible passages that tell Christians to skip meeting together of a congregation with one or more elders (Titus 1:5 seems to place the ideal as more than one elder/pastor for each church assembly), etc. Professing Christians who try to justify not being a part of a local congregation is the antithesis of the whole of NT doctrine concerning this issue. Please check out area churches, and carefully pick one that is sound in doctrine, biblically balanced, and have fellowship, grow, contribute, and further the work of that church in your area. Jesus said, "IF you love me, you *will* obey what I command." (John 14:15 NIV).
PART 4 of my response to Princessgifts7's post: It isn't that "churched Christians" disagree. It's that the Bible does, which is to be the final standard for all areas of Christian living (Acts 17:11, 2 Tim 3:16-17, Ps 119). One Christian here said, "I have peace with Jesus and that is what matters", but is that really biblical? No. That is using subjective feelings as the standard, it seems. This is not from a biblical worldview. Mormons (I am ex-Mormon), New Agers, and other non-Christians in society use feelings and subjective standards as the standard, but that is a false standard, especially for Christians. Feelings have a place, but the biblical Christian will use the Bible as the supreme and final standard to keep their feelings and subjectivism in check with the Bible, not the other way around. Also check the "one another" verses, as well as a number of passages in Proverbs on the correctness to hear others' views, not dismissing them as "judgmental", when that term is way misused in the church (somewhat like how 'tolerance' is misused among non-Christians, and unfortunately some Christians). The Bible says not to judge hypocritically, or do so without making sure you are also dealing with yourself (See carefully the entire chapter of Matt. 7, where it goes on to actually say to judge- decide true from the false- in claimed prophets, etc). Jesus said in John 7:24, "Do not judge from outward appearances, but judge righteous judgment." It isn't that a professing Christian "feels good" about being unchurched, it is what does the Bible say, and what is their response to it. "Jesus also said, "Why do you call me Lord, and do not do the things that I say?" (Luke 6:46) 1 Samuel 15:22, "To obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken is more important than the fat of rams [in sacrifices]."
PT 5/LAST of my response to Princessgifts7: I close with this passage from the Christian apostle Paul in 2 Tim 2:15; 4:1-4: "Be DILIGENT to present yourself APPROVED to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, ACCURATELY handling THE WORD OF TRUTH. ... In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach THE WORD; be PREPARED in season and out of season; CORRECT, REBUKE and encourage—with great patience and CAREFUL instruction [OR "SOUND DOCTRINE/TEACHING"]. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound DOCTRINE. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." Paul doesn't say to dismiss 'the Word of God' for 'the NT Holy Spirit', but to preach it, and correct and rebuke (in love- Eph. 4:15) with it. This is for a reason- for the time will come (and now is, to be sure!) when they won't put up with sound doctrine, but gather teachers who will tickle their ears, and give them what they want to hear. 2 Tim. 3:16-17 directly states that "all scripture is inspired of God" or "God-breathed" and states IT "is profitable for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION in righteousness, THAT [this is the goal] the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." Yes, the NT Jesus did say: "And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. " (Matt. 22:37).
This is NOT divorced from obeying "the word of God". It is inseparable from it. Love the Bible's God, but dismiss what suppose to be 'his word'? A person professing to be a Christian is NOT following the NT's God the Father or Jesus by disregarding, dismissing, rationalizing away, or rejecting the Bible as THE standard for Christians. This certainly includes those who use their own subjectivism and mistake it for 'the Holy Spirit'. "And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another
Hello freethinker69. I am so sorry that my comments caused you so much time and effort to defend your position. I can see that the most peaceful solution in this discussion is to simply "agree to disagree" My first comments to this discussion were meant to help & encourage the original poster. The recent comments here have gone beyond being helpful & loving and have the potential to stir up strife. So, I am going to end my comments on this topic by stating that my temporary abstinance from a church building is in obedience to specific direction from God. There are numerous examples in the Bible where Godly men & women were given direction from God to do things that were not accepted by the general public. More often than not, the strongest criticism comes from within the church rather than from unbelievers. I pray that you receive the Love, Joy & peace of God into your heart & home. Blessings!
I don't go to church much either. mostly because of all the stuff that goes on inside churches. Last year I was very involved in a church. Volunteered, did about everything and some bad stuff went down and I left. It's just terrible the way Christians treat each others in churches. My husband is a gospel singer so he goes to at least 3/4 churches every sunday... Maybe one day i will go back, but not right now.. I think you can be a Christian and not go to church for various reasons.
Princessgifts, Thanks for your reply. I don't want to make this a long response (I was long enough last time!). A few comments: Princess- You shared: "So, I am going to end my comments on this topic by stating that my temporary abstinance from a church building is in obedience to specific direction from God. There are numerous examples in the Bible where Godly men & women were given direction from God to do things that were not accepted by the general public. More often than not, the strongest criticism comes from within the church rather than from unbelievers." It is true that there are examples of divine direction in the Bible for some to do things unapproved by the "*general* public*". However, I don't think the Bible's God contradicted what he already gave. It isn't if they are in agreement with the "general public", but whether they agree with already written scripture. Acts 17:11- test all claims, even from a living apostle, by written scripture. There's a big difference. Our subjective feelings, etc., do not override the Bible, according to the Bible. Something like going to church, or not, it is no surprise non-Christians would agree with not going more than Christians. For the Christian, should that be a plus? 2 Cor. 4 says the NT's Satan has blinded their minds. 2 Cor.. 2:14 says the non-Christians don't understand the things of the NT God, for they are foolishness to them (generally speaking). Psalm 1- "Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, or stand in the way of sinners, or sit in the seat of mockers. But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night." IF you did receive divine direction in this isolated instance, this would be the exception, not the rule. However, I see no biblical allowance for the actions of a professing Christian to contradict "His word". Disobeying the NT of the Bible is never, biblically speaking, obeying the God of the NT. I just don't understand that an increasing amount of professing Christians use experience over the Bible, the subjective over the objective record of the Bible. Take care, Princess.
ninaewalm2, I also have had, and known, churches I've been to, or been a member of, that did not live up to what they should. The solution isn't to retreat. The church I grew up in had deacons (Baptist- Baptists confuse deacons with elders, IMO, often) didn't like the different and new ways a former youth pastor did, and that-I think-led to him leaving. A great guy, positive, effective, and inspiring. Gone for 'stogy old fuddy duddies' (fortunately are no longer deacons there). Now, the church still is preaching, Bible studies, small groups, a youth program with a cool youth leader, and they have many new faces. I tried to convert Mormon missionaries as a 17 year old, and wound up a Mormon for a bit over 2 years, and left (Mormonism is radically different from biblical Christianity in so many ways, including most of the essentials- www.MRM.org, www.UTLM.org). Then after being back at the same Baptist church, I joined the then mind control & authoritarian Boston Church of Christ movement/International Churches of Christ. Only lasted 7 months there until I left because I found out their mind control ways (at the time-they now have dropped much/most, maybe all, of the abuses, but still have the serious error on baptism), and I no longer believed water baptism was essential to salvation in the New Testament/NT. I decided to go to another Baptist church because the preaching, etc., was more Bible-based- teaching it well from the pulpit & some friends who went to a Bible study I knew, along with the study leader, joined that church. Great church, but after I moved w/family & switched churches- I now attended a church planting of theirs. Fine church. Moved again, and I went to a different church. While there w/my Mom, we found out the pastor of the former church that had the great teaching had a problem of moral failure of the pastor. He has since been fine, and the church is still the largest and most giving to missions in their convention area, but that was a blow. If I were a Christian aas a member of that church, I would not have left. The imperfections do not negate the work al churches have in growing and "equipping the saints". The church I was attending w/my Mom, after I moved w/someone, from the immediate area, got rid of its pastor without letting the church members know much at all (no need for details), for one of their own choosing. My Mom was thinking of switching (not dropping out), and didn't think the new pastor had very good sermons, but he has improved, and she stayed. I think she is fine with the church now. The work there goes on. With all of that, the Bible still says not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together & shows the assembly has pastors/elders, deacons, teachers. I never even thought of dropping out because of the negative I witnessed, etc., in most of the churches I was a part of. After being away from Christianity for years (Had nothing to do with negative experiences in churches, or personal 'sin', etc), I am now reevaluating. I, however, have always still attended a church. None are perfect, but I can always go to another. People are people. The local congregation is for "the perfecting of the saints to do the work of ministry", not for those who are already perfect, which none of us are. I steer clear of any Word of Faith church (see charismatic Christian DR McConnell's book, "A Different Gospel"), and other seriously unbiblical churches, but there are enough of those that are doctrinally sound, if I want to check out churches from a biblical perspective. The church I now attend came from being liberal, and is Congregational. It still has some who are not all conservative, but the pastor and the former assoc. pastor (he left on good terms. He just believed the opening at another good church & the position, would be where he should now be, which is cool) really turned the church around to uphold evangelical Christianity. Every member isn't completely conservative, but is much closer than before and upholds the basics of Christianity on the Trinity, salvation, and other things. The pastor is solidly evangelical, and. a huge change has taken place over the years. I also know churches that from all I know and hear, are fine, with imperfections. I hope and encourage you to attend a sound church congregation, but at least hope that you return to grow, and serve in, soon. There can be Christians who don't go to church. However, what does the Bible say concerning that issue? NT's Jesus: "If you love me, you will obey my commands." Take care.
Because "Neighborhoods" works different technically than "Discussion Boards" I never knew I had any replies until one of you sent me an e-mail. Back from vacation and 2 estate auctions back to back (whew) I am looking forward to slowly reading all your replies.
Good news: 2 months ago my husband wanted to change churches as well as I, and it only took us 2 visits to find one. Bless you all.
Must use Buy It Now and PayPal.
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